Brewers Clarex / Liquid Yeast

[blacklab]

This is a product which is manufactured by a company in the Netherlands (http://www.dsm.com/le/en_US/brewersclarex/html/home.htm). Papazian (http://www.examiner.com/x-241-Beer-Examiner~y2009m10d22-Gluten-free-beer-Reduced-gluten-beer-offers-real-beer-taste-for-Celiac-impaired) used it to brew a reduced gluten beer (less than 5ppm). It degrades gluten in the beer when introduced along with the yeast. You can find his recipe and technique in the November '09 Zymurgy.

I am working on finding some in the US; I've contacted White Labs and DSM.

White Labs came back with this response:


We are currently working with the manufacturer of Clarex to make it available to Homebrewers. It is not available just yet. Please visit our website periodically for updates.

In the meantime here is some information for you regarding our yeast being gluten free:

According to a recent FDA ruling, anything under 20 ppm can be considered gluten free. Our yeast analysis: Yeast slurry in package~12 ppm. When our yeast is used with ingredients such as sorghum to make gluten free beer~2 ppm. Therefore, beer made with our yeast will fall under that amount and CAN be considered gluten free.

The comment about liquid yeast is interesting because in the past, gluten free brewers have been advised to avoid it because malt extract is used in propagation by the manufacturer. Frankly this opens up a whole new world of stylistic choices for gluten free homebrews. However it's necessary to note that homebrew made with Clarex and/or liquid yeast is NOT gluten free, merely gluten reduced. Each person needs to discover their level of sensitivity.

I'll update this thread with any news I hear from White Labs/DSM.

[flyangler18]

Whereabouts on the sensitivity scale do you fall, blacklab?

[BrewMeister Jeff]

That has to be good news for you hey black lab! How does that change your brewing processes?

[blacklab]

I'm not that bad. I can't eat regular bread anymore, or have anything made with processed flour type stuff, but if I watch it I'm OK. Even regular 'gluten free' labeled products are only guaranteed to have less than 20ppm, and I eat those items all the time. Some people have to go to extremes and switch out their silverware / cookware / dishes in order for the symptoms to subside. They even have to watch out for cross contamination when out at restaurants. My symptoms went away after I cut out the basic stuff; regular bread type products and highly processed pre-prepared foods (they often have stabilizers and things with gluten in them).

I'm pretty sure I could drink beer with less than 5ppm all day long:D

[Lerxst]

Interesting....a little ways back, Wyeast released GF versions of a couple strains

http://www.wyeastlab.com/pressrelease_detail.cfm?pressreleaseID=5


I'd think about emailing Charlie P and see if he can hook you up.

[blacklab]

That has to be good news for you hey black lab! How does that change your brewing processes?

If this Clarex stuff is as advertised, then you just pitch it with the yeast, and that's it. Beers with wheat malt are pretty much off the table, though.

[Redweasel]

That's great news if you can find a way to land the stuff. I have some friends who are begging for GF beer. It would mean a ton to them if I could deliver.

[blacklab]

Just got this response back from the Clarex manufacturer:


Thank you for your Brewers Clarex inquiry. At this time, Brewers Clarex is not available in quantities suitable for home brewing use. However, we are working with White Labs on a solution to make all of our brewing products available to home brewers. We hope to have this in place by the beginning of next year.

I will keep you informed on our progress and let you know when Brewers Clarex becomes available for home brewing use. Thanks in advance for your patience-- we look forward to hearing your Brewers Clarex success story in the very near future!

kd came through with an email for Charlie P. - so I'll give him a shot next.

[Tankard]

Awesome blacklab, hopefully this stuff will help you out and you can start enjoying your cascade orange pale ale again.

[blacklab]

Awesome blacklab, hopefully this stuff will help you out and you can start enjoying your cascade orange pale ale again.

That's the plan!

[blacklab]

I just got an email from the product manager for Brewer's Clarex - they want me to be a tester, and do some endorsements for White Labs to use in their marketing materials for the launch in the spring.

HELL yes. I am going to own this Celiac thing, one way or another.

I don't use these guys very often but it's warranted for this post.

:k2: :k:
....................[gluten]

[flyangler18]

Sweet news, blacklab. Giggity.

[BrewMeister Jeff]

ROCK ON! Here is another one for you::k::k2:

[Lerxst]

Excellent news!

If you need any tasting or brewing to be done for the cause, let me know.

[Evan!]

That is face-rockin', BL.

[blacklab]

Is it weird when your six year old daughter says, 'Yay, daddy can drink beer again!'

[BrewMeister Jeff]

can't be a bad thing, can it?

[BrewDrew]

Hey Blacklab,

I found thise thread using Google.

I would like to know if Whitelabs is gonna sell pure Brewers Clarex or will they sell it mixed with yeast?

I would prefer if they would sell pure Brewers Clarex.

Could you pull some strings? ;)

[Ó Flannagáin]

Not sure how I missed this thread but that's badass, blacklab!! and welcome to HBC BrewDrew

[blacklab]

Hey Blacklab,

I found thise thread using Google.

I would like to know if Whitelabs is gonna sell pure Brewers Clarex or will they sell it mixed with yeast?

I would prefer if they would sell pure Brewers Clarex.

Could you pull some strings? ;)

Hey BrewDrew, welcome. Right now the product is basically 'weaponized', it's only sold to enterprise level producers of food products like juices, wines, etc., in what I only assume is 50 gallon drums. The application to homebrewing and Celiac was only discovered a few months ago, so right now they are working with White Labs to pull together production/packaging for a product that is more suited to 5 gallon batches of homebrew. It will be sold as a stand alone additive. White Labs should have it around springtime, from what I am told.

[heinz57]

Is it weird when your six year old daughter says, 'Yay, daddy can drink beer again!'

No way, if anything get that on tape, that's too good to pass up.

Awesome to hear it about the White Labs connection too. I'd milk that connection for all its worth.

[BrewDrew]

Hey BrewDrew, welcome. Right now the product is basically 'weaponized', it's only sold to enterprise level producers of food products like juices, wines, etc., in what I only assume is 50 gallon drums. The application to homebrewing and Celiac was only discovered a few months ago, so right now they are working with White Labs to pull together production/packaging for a product that is more suited to 5 gallon batches of homebrew. It will be sold as a stand alone additive. White Labs should have it around springtime, from what I am told.

Ah ok, thanks for the info.

Hope it works for you. :)

[blacklab]

Bwwwwahhhhaahha! Merry freakin' Christmas to me!


Hi Mat,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I submitted a request to send a 15 gram sample of Brewers Clarex DF to you. This should be enough for about six 5-gallon brews (@ ~12 Plato). As it will be shipping from France, I would expect you to receive it shortly after Christmas...consider it a belated present!).

Please let me know when you receive the sample. Happy brewing!

[Orpheus]

Man, you must feel like you've won the lottery. Sounds like it's a better time to be a celiac ass-kicking mofo than any time in beer-drinking history!

[Redweasel]

That is freaking killer man!

[blacklab]

I just can't wait to relax with a couple of homebrews, there's nothing like it. Homebrew just makes me feel so much better and more mellow than commercial beers. It's probably mental, but a homebrewed beer is just so much nicer to me. It should be on in late January!

[BrewDrew]

Awesome Blacklab, Merrrrry Christmas!

[blacklab]

Just got an IM from my wife, the shipment of Clarex just arrived at my house. Looks like I'll be making a massive GF IPA this weekend! I'm going to create a separate thread and record my adventures there.

[davebl]

Just got an IM from my wife, the shipment of Clarex just arrived at my house. Looks like I'll be making a massive GF IPA this weekend! I'm going to create a separate thread and record my adventures there.

Awesome!

[Union Brewer]

That kicks ass! Good luck.

[BrewDrew]

Just got an IM from my wife, the shipment of Clarex just arrived at my house. Looks like I'll be making a massive GF IPA this weekend! I'm going to create a separate thread and record my adventures there.

Sweet. Could you add some pics of the Clarex?

[BrewDrew]

Any updates Mister Blacklab? :alc:

[blacklab]

Haven't had a chance to brew since I got it, but I should this weekend.

[BrewDrew]

Okidoki. :cool:

[Baston8005]

I was into homebrewing big time a few years ago. Then I found out I had Celiac disease. Big downer. I can take some gluten in my diet. It's when I eat gluten for several meals(days of gluten abuse) in a row that I feel the effects on my digestional tract(Aka ...da shits). A year or so later I sold all my brewing equipment. An old friend who still brews read that White labs is testing Clarex for removing Gluten from the beer brewing process. I did some searches on Google and this forum popped up. Just wondering if you have made a batch yet? If so, how'd it go? How did you get the Clarex samples?
Thanks for any reply

Bryce

[blacklab]

I was into homebrewing big time a few years ago. Then I found out I had Celiac disease. Big downer. I can take some gluten in my diet. It's when I eat gluten for several meals(days of gluten abuse) in a row that I feel the effects on my digestional tract(Aka ...da shits). A year or so later I sold all my brewing equipment. An old friend who still brews read that White labs is testing Clarex for removing Gluten from the beer brewing process. I did some searches on Google and this forum popped up. Just wondering if you have made a batch yet? If so, how'd it go? How did you get the Clarex samples?
Thanks for any reply

Bryce

Bryce - White Labs will likely be distributing Clarex in the spring as an additive for that very purpose. I contacted the manufacturer and they sent me a sample to test out, in exchange for the use of some quotes for marketing when the product launches.

OK, so I finally got the gluten tests in, and tested the beer that I used the Clarex on. They are sort of like a pregnancy test, one line you're not, two you are, etc. I performed the test on the beer that I used the Clarex on, and it came up really high, like over 50,000 ppm, according to the people who manufacture the test. (http://www.ezgluten.com/)

At this point I think I need to do a control test on a regular beer to see what results I get. I have not drank any of the Clarex beer yet, which is a somewhat low tech way to test things, but at this point not sure what else to do. I know there are more expensive/accurate gluten tests out there, which I may opt for later on. At this point I'm in contact with the manufacturer of both the test and the Clarex to see what to do next.

[Baston8005]

So, your at 5% gluten. What was the recipe of your beer. When was the Clarex added and how long of a ferment did you have?

[blacklab]

Clarex is added along with the yeast. Three weeks in primary. I racked to a keg and have been cold crashing, so I'll probably test it again and see what happens in a week or so. FDA guidance for the 'gluten free' label is 20 ppm so we are still way high.

[De-Geert]

I performed the test on the beer that I used the Clarex on, and it came up really high, like over 50,000 ppm
That's odd, since I think even raw barley does not have 5% of gluten.

[Baston8005]

Did you do a retest?

[BrewDrew]

Thanks for the update.

I read on Whitelabs' Facebook Wall that theyre planning to sell it early April. :)

[blacklab]

That's odd, since I think even raw barley does not have 5% of gluten.

Thanks for the info - where did you hear that?


Did you do a retest?

Not yet, I just started drinking it. No issues so far. I'm going to make a less complex beer next time (100% organic 2 row) and hit it with the Clarex as a control.

[Baston8005]

Send me a 6 pack so I can test it out...

[De-Geert]

Thanks for the info - where did you hear that?

There is a scientific article, in which gluten levels of barley, malt and beers are shown. Barley ranges from about 2,2 to 3,2% of gluten per weight.
In the resulting beer the numbers are much lower (order of 5-40 mg per liter (ppm) so almost a 1000 fold lower.
If you found 5%, it cannot be correct, just from the fact that you dilute the malt with water.

The article is:
Immunochemical determination of gluten in malts and beers, by
Dostálek, P., Hochel, I., Méndez, E., Hernando, A. and Gabrovská, D. (2006)

http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/02652030600740637

[blacklab]

There is a scientific article, in which gluten levels of barley, malt and beers are shown. Barley ranges from about 2,2 to 3,2% of gluten per weight.
In the resulting beer the numbers are much lower (order of 5-40 mg per liter (ppm) so almost a 1000 fold lower.
If you found 5%, it cannot be correct, just from the fact that you dilute the malt with water.

The article is:
Immunochemical determination of gluten in malts and beers, by
Dostálek, P., Hochel, I., Méndez, E., Hernando, A. and Gabrovská, D. (2006)

http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/02652030600740637

Hmm, agreed. My figures don't make sense based on the figures you provided. The ppm I am quoting is from the company that makes the gluten test I used.

I guess, for me, the bottom line is that I can drink the beer I've made with Clarex, with no Celiac reaction, given a few conditions:

-no wheat malt
-OG less than 1.060

thanks for the info.

[blacklab]

Send me a 6 pack so I can test it out...

lulz-tastic.

[De-Geert]

I guess, for me, the bottom line is that I can drink the beer I've made with Clarex, with no Celiac reaction, given a few conditions:

Well, that's good news. Would you say you are very sensitive? I know this can vary greatly from one person to another.

[blacklab]

Well, that's good news. Would you say you are very sensitive? I know this can vary greatly from one person to another.

I'm not all that sensitive. I have to watch it though.

[BrewDrew]

They start selling it 1 April. :)

[Monocoastal]

UPDATE: Just talked to DSM. 4/1 date is postponed (not a prank ;?), but is still imminent. WL wants to announce deal at the Craft Brewery Conference in Chi, 4/7, so DSM hopes to have a deal signed in the next couple of days.

[blacklab]

UPDATE: Just talked to DSM. 4/1 date is postponed (not a prank ;?), but is still imminent. WL wants to announce deal at the Craft Brewery Conference in Chi, 4/7, so DSM hopes to have a deal signed in the next couple of days.

Would you mind PM'ing me with the name of the person you have been talking to over there? Just curious if it's the same guy I've been in contact with.

[BrewDrew]

OH, COME ON!!1! :crack:

[Monocoastal]

So we're talking to the same people, BL. Cool. I should mention something else he said, and share it with everybody. This may not entirely be news, but there's an important point made that bears repeating, Word-of-mouth is an important means of marketing for a product like this, and we have a chance to help avoid a potential pitfall.

"While hydrolizing the epitopes that cause gluten allergies is a side benefit... it is
not something we actively promote about the product. Testing it to
ensure no gluten is present should help ensure no one develops serious
medical issues should a very small fraction of gluten remain."

It is clear they are sensitive to their potential exposure relative to people getting sick - legitimate concern. However, they are also motivated enough ($$$) to offer it to HBers through White Labs. Good for us!

Based on their literature, the original purpose of Clarex was dropping out the chill haze in a cost effective manner for commercial brewers -- clarifying the beer, hence the name. Of course, chill haze is based on the proteins, so by definition they're reducing the gluten content, though not strictly eliminating it. If this thing ever gets promoted as a gluten eliminating cure all, and someone out there gets sick as a result, they could pull it from the HB market. Bad for us!

So, I suggest we adopt's Blacklab's excellent approach of "gluten-reduced brewing" as we discuss with other friends and bar patrons. Definitely the way to go, IMO. I told DSM my intended use of this product was to aid in reducing gluten content, and was only one method I'll be using - which is true.

Hope I'm not belaboring the point, but it seems to me it's a tricky one for this manufacturer and we can potentially help them avoid a pitfall that would snafu the whole thing.

[Baston8005]

Is there a firm release date yet?

[blacklab]

OH, COME ON!!1! :crack:

WTF?

[brewmike]

How can gluten levels be reduced in beer? All Clarex does is to :k2: chop proteins into smaller proteinacous bits (more specific though than other proteinases, at prolin rich areas), which are not visible to the human eye (but to nephelometers). So effectively all the rubbish protein REMAINS in the beer.

Nothing is getting precipitated, as it usually happens when using the natural way of stabilisation: maturation at cold temperatures lets proteins and polyphenols complex and precipitate. I would therefore expect, that even more gluten remains in the beer ... besides the Clarex enzyme ... which derives from genetically modified aspergillus niger mold ... :(

[BrewDrew]

^ In simple terms: When you can chop the gluten, they are no longer gluten. :)

[brewmike]

Mmmh, interesting. You are right, the key components of Gluten, Gliadin and Glutenin, contain lots of prolin, so the prolin specific protease would chop these proteins. Do you know at what stage (protein size in Dalton or so) gluten does not qualify at "gluten" anymore? Or more importantly: At what degradation stage is gluten no more troublesome for celiac desease patients?

Anyhow, prolin rich proteins can also be removed by chilling or adsorption with silica. Personally find this cleaner. Leaves no remains and supports my understanding of the "purification process" brewing. (Have no data on how this impacts gluten levels though.) Essentially I simply do not want to have any enzymes added at a stage later then boiling, if added at all. Good malt has so much of it ;)

[BrewDrew]

At what degradation stage is gluten no more troublesome for celiac desease patients?

When the gluten peptide is completely destructed.

[Monocoastal]

When the gluten peptide is completely destructed.

What constitutes "complete"? Can we cite clinical proof vis-a-vis Celiac and gluten intolerance sufferers?

This is an excellent thread guys! :D Seems for now the jury is still out on what Clarex really buys us. If it breaks down enough of the gliadin chains, then OK. If not, it may actually inhibit the ability to otherwise remove sufficient amounts (gelatin, cold crashing) to make regular beer "safe enough".

[BrewDrew]

I can give you some links on what this type of enzyme (Prolyl Endoprotease derived from Aspergillus Niger) is capable of in a more concentrated form:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16690904

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090304670

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00810654


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18425213

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19766641

[brewmike]

Exactly my point, Monocoastal, protease treated beer will result in smaller peptides that cannot be precipitated by cold maturation anymore. All the proteinacous stuff remains in the beer. It will depend on the glutamin-prolin sequences of gliadin and glutenin fractions, how far the degredation can be pushed. (Is that alwasy the same?)

I am not a specialist in analysing gluten content but I am wondering, whether one even creates lots of "small gluten" bits rather than few "large gluten" bits. An explanation for the high readings mentioned before? (Clarex only "cuts" at prolin!).

Also read, that with the lots of glutamin released by such degradation, intestin transglutaminase transfers this into Glutamat. Glutamat essential for binding gliadin peptides to HLA-Antigen ==> those then better bind to lymphocyte ==> increased inflammation risk.

Not scientific, just brewer-brain thinking. Am always getting sensitised if the proven purification process "brewing" is getting disturbed. But seems I am now caught in the quest of creating gluten free beer process.:)

[brewmike]

Happened to speak to a gluten specialist. So far 20 aminoacid sequences are known to be toxic. Frightening: Sequences can be as small as 3 aminoacid sequences to be toxic. Thus a degradation has to go down to single aa level.
Also, even most modern elisa tests yet not sensitive enough to detect all toxic compounds. But a new test on the horizon, will be published at congress in Tampere, Finland, very soon.
Also heard of new development in malting science ... possibly a solution anticipated for mid 2011. That would clearly be the best solution of all!!

[blacklab]

Happened to speak to a gluten specialist. So far 20 aminoacid sequences are known to be toxic. Frightening: Sequences can be as small as 3 aminoacid sequences to be toxic. Thus a degradation has to go down to single aa level.
Also, even most modern elisa tests yet not sensitive enough to detect all toxic compounds. But a new test on the horizon, will be published at congress in Tampere, Finland, very soon.
Also heard of new development in malting science ... possibly a solution anticipated for mid 2011. That would clearly be the best solution of all!!

Those articles are a bit over my head, but VERY interesting! The gluten specialist is on the money, at least as far as my experience goes. I still get a reaction from my reduced gluten beer, just a smaller one. Please post when you have more data on the new test. The one I used was very inaccurate. Care to share more on the new developments in malting?

[Monocoastal]

Thanks for the links, brewmike. This isn't my formal field of study, so the full texts will take a little while to digest (heh heh), but it's good stuff as blacklab says.

:confused: So I take you to mean that 20aa chains are clinically proven toxic and chains as small as 3aa are theoretically toxic to true Celiacs, is that right? I can completely buy the 20aa chain, but I'm having difficulty with 3aa and the idea that you need to completely break a gluten protein molecule down to individual amino acids to be safe. Are we talking about a particular 3aa sequence that is totally unique in the human body such that it will cause a toxic reaction?

Again, not my specialty, so I hope you will bear with me on any silly or naive questions or statements, friends. I do find this stuff pretty fascinating in spite of myself. ;)

[brewmike]

Dont want to take credit for BrewDrew´s posting of the literature links. Great links, BrewDrew.

My info on aminoacids comes from a PhD brewer, working in R&D at German Technical University of Brewing (Munich, Weihenstephan). Trust he knows what he is talking and has no commercial interest ...

Although usage of enzymes in cold beer process (after boiling) is a bit against my philosophy, it seems there is a German brewery (Lammsbraeu) using another enzyme for post treatment of finished beer to eliminate gluten. They are marketing this as gluten free but are certainly not allowed to name this "beer" (against German purity law). Will try to figure out the source.

[Monocoastal]

Doh! Sorry, BrewDrew, credited the wrong brews brother. Thx!

I'm interested in any an all techniques, brewmike. We're already seriously breaking the Purity Law by not using barley! I have the same sense that you allude to when it comes to futzing too much with traditional methods -- there's something aesthetically pleasing about these traditions and "natural" process, and some of these later methods I'm afraid are not fully thought out and can introduce unwanted results. Clarex may be a very good case in point.

At the same time, we are pioneering new territory and need new processes and ingredients. I'd just prefer if they were not over-engineered.

[blacklab]

I'd prefer to stick to all natural ingredients and not add anything to my beers, but honestly, beer with gluten makes me sick. And I'm not giving up beer, so additives it is.

[flyangler18]

The Reinheitsgebot is archaic and obsolete; it no longer has any relevance aside from some nostalgia.

[Monocoastal]

The Reinheitsgebot is archaic and obsolete; it no longer has any relevance aside from some nostalgia.

It's strict adherents tend to suppress efforts like GF brewing, and from that standpoint I completely agree, flyangler. There needs to be more leeway for some creativity.

OTOH, we have yet to do a consistently good job of one-upping Mother Nature at her own game. That is, our linear brains don't really track well on managing the natural complex systems (a la chaos) of nature, much less trying to improve on them. There always seem to be things going on that we didn't notice or didn't understand. More often than not, I think we do well trying to harness or coexist with natural process rather than futzing with stuff that inevitably comes back to bite us and sends unwanted ripples throughout the natural order. I think we're just starting to appreciate this now after a couple of centuries of rapid technical improvements.

So I think Reinheitsgebot has it's place saying KISS.

And no, I'm not a Ludite! ;)

[Monocoastal]

Talked to a couple of friends down at the LHBS about our discussions on Clarex - the three of us were intrigued by Papazian's article a few months ago. After pointing out the potential hazards to chopping up gluten, one of them asked if Brett might help, gobbling up the shorter chains of "disemboweled" gluten offered up by Clarex. Cool idea. I'm looking into this, but welcome any of your thoughts and expertise.

[PseudoChef]

ProlinE. That is all.

[blacklab]

ProlinE. That is all.

I'm assuming that this is something you use in the lab? What is it?

[PseudoChef]

It's an amino acid, so basically the building block of a protein. It is quite unique in that it is the only amino acid that doesn't contain an amide group, and thus the positions in the protein which proline occupies are usually kinked, yet still rigid, and quite inflexible.

[BrewDrew]

I cant tolerate Proline unless I take a supplement which contains protease, a pancreas enzyme. Than its no problem at all.

So every meal I take a cheap supplement with pancreas enzymes, containing protease.

[PseudoChef]

Protease is a generic term for anything that cleaves protein, no matter where in the AA chain it is. There are literally hundreds of different proteases.

[Monocoastal]

ProlinE. That is all.
So ... Brett will consume proline, but nothing else in the gluten? I've seen some references that it uses it for nitrogen, and apparently some strains consume arginine for the same purpose. In the scenario we're talking about, the proline wil already be consumed by the Clarex, correct? In which case, it doesn't buy us much ...

[BrewDrew]

Anyone know the price already?

[blacklab]

Have not heard but I can check.

[blacklab]

Just heard back, no info on price point is available from DSM, but White Labs should be distributing next month for sure. He also mentioned some rather large breweries in Europe that are making (and branding) GF beer using only Clarex. We might be able to get some advice from them on usage.

[BrewDrew]

Ok, thank you.

[Monocoastal]

... He also mentioned some rather large breweries in Europe that are making (and branding) GF beer using only Clarex. We might be able to get some advice from them on usage.

Wow. Based on the latest discussions here that's either really good news or really bad news. I more skeptical about whether Clarex is safe for an appreciable % of the GF community. It is increasingly clear to me that there is a spectrum to tolerances both from a reaction standpoint (how you feel) and a toxicity standpoint (how seriously it effects you). Many people afflicted don't understand this much less people selling or using products like Clarex. What do you guys think?

[blacklab]

Wow. Based on the latest discussions here that's either really good news or really bad news. I more skeptical about whether Clarex is safe for an appreciable % of the GF community. It is increasingly clear to me that there is a spectrum to tolerances both from a reaction standpoint (how you feel) and a toxicity standpoint (how seriously it effects you). Many people afflicted don't understand this much less people selling or using products like Clarex. What do you guys think?

He was pretty close to the vest about it, for the reasons you mention. One is apparently in Spain, the other in the Netherlands. I think they can get away with it in Europe as public health laws are a bit more lax and in general there is less of a litigatory atmosphere. He also mentioned that the gluten reducing side effects will not be advertised by White Labs. It will be branded as a fining agent.

[Monocoastal]

Yeah, he's more or less said the same things to me. He also said I could really make 100% GF beer and I'd be very happy with the product. I think to some degree they've eaten their own dog food. This is a general problem I have with our system of doing business - damn the details, there's money to be made. For the true biz libber, "leave that to the Invisible Hand to clean up." Bad dju-dju, IMHO.

My impression is that Europeans have been ahead of North Americans in promoting and adopting alternative diet lifestyles for a while. We love our wheat, and wheat is big business, and big business always comes first. Europe is more open and less restrictive as you say, but they also take this stuff very seriously and that translates to trials in the court of public opinion. I'm interested to see what happens when the word gets out on what Clarex really does. Right now, my guess is it won't be pretty.

[De-Geert]

One is apparently in Spain, the other in the Netherlands.
Funny to read this, I just found out about a beer from Barley which is "gluten free", Estrella Damm Daura. And was thinking whether this was done with Clarex.
Apparently it is. Do you have any idea which brand the one from the Netherlands is? I am from the Netherlands.

About the question whether clarex will result in peptides that are sill toxic: maybe that is true when they would end up intact in the small intestine, but the smaller peptides can be digested by enzymes in stomach and further much more easily. Remember that the same enzyme, Aspergillus Niger Prolyl Endo Protease (An-pep), is being investigated to digest gluten from food in the digestive tract. So, not during processing. The time the enzyme has to do this, is obviously much shorter than during a fermentation.
Further, this was tested with T-cells from patients, so not (only) Elisa.

The fact that beers from barley are allowed to be sold as gluten free gives me more faith in this product. I cannot compare the US to the EU, but I do know that regulations here are definitely not "easy".

[blacklab]

Funny to read this, I just found out about a beer from Barley which is "gluten free", Estrella Damm Daura. And was thinking whether this was done with Clarex.
Apparently it is. Do you have any idea which brand the one from the Netherlands is? I am from the Netherlands.

He couldn't give me the name of the company as they tend to keep their client base confidential, the countries were sort of a hint.

[De-Geert]

Too bad, but I expected that.

[Monocoastal]

I'm more confident in clinical trials than ELISA, yes, good point. I do hope this works. There have been too many products that have promised little or no downside, but... This stuff is always more complicated than expected.

Let us know if you get a chance to sample them.

[BrewDrew]

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Clarifier-Clarity-Ferm-71p3110.htm

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0102252/white-labs-clarity-ferm

http://www.beer-wine.com/products/clarity-ferm

Knock yourselves out. :D

[blacklab]

It's nice that they've pre-packaged it for instant use in a 5 gallon volume. My sample was really concentrated and I had to dilute it before adding it to the wort.

Interesting that highgravity mentions the gluten reduction aspects but the others do not.

[BrewDrew]

How much more concentrated was your sample Blacklab? 5 times, 10 times?

I mean: how much ml of the original sample would you need to use in a 5 gallon volume?


And the owner of Highgravity has to eat/drink glutenfree herself.

[blacklab]

3ml / 5 gallon batch. Instructions told me to mix in around 1/2 cup of water and then pitch it with the yeast. I'm sure that the stuff for sale commercially is just pre-mixed.

[BrewDrew]

Ok, thanks. And yes its pre-mixed and ready to go.

[mrkstel]

I tried Clarity-Ferm in an oatmeal stout that went into the keg this week. While racking to the keg, I noticed that the yeast cake was much more slimy and sticky that it usually is. I'm curious if that is a result of the gluten precipitating out. I also tasted a little at the same time and while the flavor was outstanding, it was pretty light bodied considering the full pound of oats I had in it. I wonder if the clarity-ferm is also breaking down the proteins that add body in addition to the cold break and gluten proteins. I added 6 oz of maltodextrin to try to bring the body back up. Thoughts?

The beer was a 5 gallon Midwest Supply Oatmeal Stout all grain kit. I added an extra 1/2 lb of oats for a total of 1 lb in the mash. SG: 1.055 FG: 1.011

[blacklab]

I tried Clarity-Ferm in an oatmeal stout that went into the keg this week. While racking to the keg, I noticed that the yeast cake was much more slimy and sticky that it usually is. I'm curious if that is a result of the gluten precipitating out. I also tasted a little at the same time and while the flavor was outstanding, it was pretty light bodied considering the full pound of oats I had in it. I wonder if the clarity-ferm is also breaking down the proteins that add body in addition to the cold break and gluten proteins. I added 6 oz of maltodextrin to try to bring the body back up. Thoughts?

The beer was a 5 gallon Midwest Supply Oatmeal Stout all grain kit. I added an extra 1/2 lb of oats for a total of 1 lb in the mash. SG: 1.055 FG: 1.011

My guess is that you are correct, but I am just guessing. There is some debate as to how the Clarex actually works; I've heard that it actually breaks up the gluten chains and destroys them rather than attaching and making them precipitate, in the manner of a more traditional clarifier. I have noticed that all of my beers that included Clarex were pretty thin, but I've never attempted a stout with it. That being said, I'm assuming that the oats you mashed were pregelatinized?

[mrkstel]

Yes, they were pre-gelatinized.

[blacklab]

Brewed up an APA and hit it with Clarex today. I'll test it after fermentation with an ELISA test kit and post the results here.

[Monocoastal]

Had a bottle of Damm Estrella Daura - the Spanish gluten-reduced lager - and it was quite good. A typey Euro lager, no after taste, normal body, mouth feel, etc. Clearly superior to the half dozen commercial GF beers I've tried and better than any GF batch I've made with alternative grains. Also very reasonably priced. None of this is surprising, considering the Clarex is essentially used as a clarifier with a normal grain/hop bill and if anything, should save on process/equipment costs in the long run. Interestingly, it is not labeled GLUTEN FREE. Rather, in fine type on the neck, it claims 6ppm gluten content.... nothing more. So, consistent with what we were hearing from the U.S. brander/distributor, the Europeans are also cautious about asserting too much as far as this product being GF or being otherwise safe for gluten-intolerant or celiac consumers.

FYI, bought this at a local beer emporium first, then picked up a 4 pack afterward. So it's being pretty widely distributed unless I happen to be in a test market.

[Ó Flannagáin]

This thread was brought to my attention and has some great info in it. I'm going to sticky it, if any of you guys want to collaborate and make a more condensed guide I could probably put that as the sticky instead.

[blacklab]

Had a bottle of Damm Estrella Daura - the Spanish gluten-reduced lager - and it was quite good. A typey Euro lager, no after taste, normal body, mouth feel, etc. Clearly superior to the half dozen commercial GF beers I've tried and better than any GF batch I've made with alternative grains. Also very reasonably priced. None of this is surprising, considering the Clarex is essentially used as a clarifier with a normal grain/hop bill and if anything, should save on process/equipment costs in the long run. Interestingly, it is not labeled GLUTEN FREE. Rather, in fine type on the neck, it claims 6ppm gluten content.... nothing more. So, consistent with what we were hearing from the U.S. brander/distributor, the Europeans are also cautious about asserting too much as far as this product being GF or being otherwise safe for gluten-intolerant or celiac consumers.

FYI, bought this at a local beer emporium first, then picked up a 4 pack afterward. So it's being pretty widely distributed unless I happen to be in a test market.

I actually heard about Damm Daura from the Clarex rep, and it became available here around six months ago. Easily the best commercial example I've had of gluten free/reduced gluten beer. Hopefully the trend continues and more manufacturers start to use the product. The market needs more supply...the stuff is $10 for a 4 pack at the moment.