"Vigorous" boils = better beer

[Tankard]

Is there any logic behind this idea? I think Biermuncher was the first person to throw out this idea to me, but I've seen quite a few others say the same thing.

Boiling more vigorously seems like it would just increase the evaporation rate. Once the water is at 212, it won't get any hotter, and it will just boil off faster. When I had my 7 gallon stock pot, I tried to keep the flame as low as possible to reduce evaporation, while still keeping the boil. Also, it saved propane, which was a plus. Now that I have a 10 gallon stock pot, I don't worry about evaporation as much, but I'm still wondering if there is any truth to this idea.

[Ó Flannagáin]

You want a vigorous boil to help you achieve hot break and so you get your bitterness level you desire from your hops, but you don't want it so intense you start caramelizing your brew and you boil off way too much. About finding a happy medium I believe :)

[PseudoChef]

A more vigorous boil will help more proteins coagulate and drop out of solution. I would also assume that you would increase hop utilization - but this relationship wouldn't be linear as there's only a certain level each specific hop can contribute.

But Flan put it perfectly - happy medium - don't want to increase carmelisation in those all pils beers and such.

[Barley-Davidson]

I've found that the faster I reach boiling the better the hot break (based purely on unscientific, anecdotal evidence).
After the hot break I dial down the flame for the rest of the boil.

[Chimone]

Yes

There is so much chemistry behind this and I'd really not go digging into text books.....but yes. vigorous boils produce and better finished product. In a nutshell, the molecules in beer that you want to bond together and fall out find each other easier with a more vigorous boil. And volatiles and boiled off more efficiently.

Yes, its alot more complicated than that but just Im off to the bar. Maybe I'll look it up and get you all the technical terms and reasons later.


Now no need to boil it so hard you are on the verge of boiling over for the full 60, but don't just let it sit right above a simmer either.

[PseudoChef]

Yes

There is so much chemistry behind this and I'd really not go digging into text books.....but yes. vigorous boils produce and better finished product. In a nutshell, the molecules in beer that you want to bond together and fall out find each other easier with a more vigorous boil. And volatiles and boiled off more efficiently.

Yes, its alot more complicated than that but just Im off to the bar. Maybe I'll look it up and get you all the technical terms and reasons later.


In a nutshell: higher heat will unfold proteins (think of a string, then ball it up, that's a protein - heat makes it turn into a string again). Once they're unfolded, more charges are exposed from the atoms and opposites attract, blah blah blah, so they stick together easier. More mass (the more the proteins stick together) the more likely they are to fall out of solution. Once they're out of solution, they tend to coagulate (stick together), more mass there, and they start falling to the bottom, and thus out of the finished product.

[BlindLemonLars]

I do agree about better protein coagulation and hot break. Furthermore, I use a paint-strainer rig for my pellet hops, so I like the boil to be active enough to keep the bag moving vigorously in the wort. Nothing violent mind you, just a good solid rolling boil.

[Evan!]

but you don't want it so intense you start caramelizing your brew and you boil off way too much. About finding a happy medium I believe :)


don't want to increase carmelisation in those all pils beers and such.

Well here's another urban myth that deserves more discussion. I've never gotten more caramelization from more vigorous boils than less-so---just more melanoidin character. JP & JZ have discussed this at one time or another, and the consensus they have come to is that in order to get caramelization, the liquid has to be much more dense with sugar than beer wort is. So, if you took a portion of your wort and put it in a separate pot and boiled it down til it was really thick (like when you make candi sugar), then you would achieve caramelization...but from just a vigorous boil, not really. Now, I'm never one to just take those two at their word, but my personal experience tends to confirm this. At most, all you get are more maillard reactions---not the same thing as caramelizing.

[PseudoChef]

Quite true. Meladoinins aren't the same as carmelisation, but would there ever be an instance when you don't want increased meladoining production? (without calling in the dectectable levels in your taste)

[Evan!]

Quite true. Meladoinins aren't the same as carmelisation, but would there ever be an instance when you don't want increased meladoining production? (without calling in the dectectable levels in your taste)

I can think of few beers where a little extra would be a bad thing.

[Chimone]

At most, all you get are more maillard reactions---not the same thing as caramelizing.


Bingo.

Kettle caramelization needs to be a reduction of sorts.

[flyangler18]

So, if you took a portion of your wort and put it in a separate pot and boiled it down til it was really thick (like when you make candi sugar), then you would achieve caramelization...but from just a vigorous boil, not really. Now, I'm never one to just take those two at their word, but my personal experience tends to confirm this. At most, all you get are more maillard reactions---not the same thing as caramelizing.


As in brewing Scottish ales according to traditional techniques, boiling down a gallon of the first runnings to a quart and then adding it back into the rest of the wort. I'd argue that caramelization is impossible in a 5 gallon boil as simply a function of total volume. A 'vigorous' boil just ain't gonna do it!

[Evan!]

As in brewing Scottish ales according to traditional techniques, boiling down a gallon of the first runnings to a quart and then adding it back into the rest of the wort. I'd argue that caramelization is impossible in a 5 gallon boil as simply a function of total volume. A 'vigorous' boil just ain't gonna do it!

My point exarcly.

[flyangler18]

Is there any logic behind this idea? I think Biermuncher was the first person to throw out this idea to me, but I've seen quite a few others say the same thing.

"Better beer" is difficult to quantify, but there is definitely a relationship between the intensity of the boil in encouraging coagulation of proteins and staling compounds in the beer (likewise, rapid cooling also plays a role), further precipitating proteins and tannins that may otherwise lead to off-flavors. It's part of the reason why some fixate on chill haze- it's not simply an aesthetic issue, but could be indicative of potential issues with stability.

[Lerxst]

Don't forget that the intensity of your boil also has an impact on isomerization rates....I don't remember the issue but BYO's Mr. Wizard section once had a brief discussion on the functions of the boil and potentially positive impacts of a rolling boil over a gentle one.

[Ó Flannagáin]

But what if you had a massive beer? Like 1.130 or something. Is there a chance of carmelization there?

[Evan!]

But what if you had a massive beer? Like 1.130 or something. Is there a chance of carmelization there?

Not sure where the threshold is, but I'm guessing it's higher than 1.130.

[blacklab]

Bingo.
Kettle caramelization needs to be a reduction of sorts.

What everyone is saying makes sense. I don't have the science, but I've never had any caramelization with any of my all grain beers, even with a 90 minute, aggressive boil. However, I'm wondering why malt extract will caramelize easily in a full boil, and all grain wort will not. In theory they are the same sugary liquid.

[Chimone]

From my understanding, its more of a scorch from it hitting the bottom with the flame on and not getting stirred into suspension fast enough.

[flyangler18]

However, I'm wondering why malt extract will caramelize easily in a full boil, and all grain wort will not. In theory they are the same sugary liquid.

In the case of LME, it's already been processed (boiled) to a level of high viscosity. When dropped into hot wort, it doesn't incorporate immediately and can, as Chimone pointed out, scorch when contacting the bottom of the pot and nearly direct flame.

[christo]

Sorry just getting in the game.

Now this is just me thinking out loud, dependent on your heat source and flame output, I think some caramelization can occur right at the point of direct heat, though it is quite insignificant in a standard gravity 5 gallon (or larger) boil. My stainless steel pot is fairly thin as it was a turkey fryer set pot. If my flame is too high I will get a light scorch on the bottom of the pot. I would think that I am getting caramelization at the point of heat.

Definitely the higher the gravity in the pot, the greater chance of caramelization, so a concentrated boil must be watched closely.

Now, back to driving off volatiles. I've been having an issue with DMS in a few beers recently. I had first thought it was due to partially covering my boil pot (trying to limit the evaporation rate some and reduce heat needed) and that while the volatiles were evaporating, they were then recondensing on the underside of the lid and falling back in. I quit covering the pot but the issue is still present.

I've now moved on to my kegs/tubing to see if I could possibly have some sanitation issue there as it seems that the DMS shows up after several weeks in the keg. A couple of folks, however, have said they think my boil isn't hard enough. When using Pilsner malt especially, it takes a hard rolling and long boil to reduce the DMS. Looking back, the DMS is mainly in my pilsner malt based beers (but also only in kegged beers).

I'm going to complete my new cleaning regimen for kegs over the next 3 batches (adding boiling water to kegs and then put lids, rings, tubing, undo/add poppets), plus I'll bottle condition a few for comparison, and see if that helps, then move back to a harder boil if that doesn't work. To deal with the extra evaporation, I'm planning just to add an extra 0.5 to 1.0 gallons of water at the beginning of the boil after completing the sparge and then let it go hard and long.

[Tankard]

Hey christo, did you get your screen name from a Vanden Plas album? I just downloaded this last night from Emusic

http://musicimg.cyworld.com/ALBUM/015/019/15019012.jpg

[christo]

Honestly, Tank, as I said in my original welcome post, christobal is my real name*, so christo or chris for short, but too many chris's on this board, Chris, so christo it is. :rolleyes:





*phonetically speaking that is

[Chimone]

Sorry just getting in the game.

Now, back to driving off volatiles. I've been having an issue with DMS in a few beers recently. I had first thought it was due to partially covering my boil pot (trying to limit the evaporation rate some and reduce heat needed) and that while the volatiles were evaporating, they were then recondensing on the underside of the lid and falling back in. I quit covering the pot but the issue is still present.



Oh yea christo putting a lid on during your boils is a big no no. You need to let the steam carry away the unwanted DMS to your neighbors yard and let them deal with it. It may take a time or two but extract a gallon or so more to compensate until your final boil volume is where it needs to be. And with a good boil, 60 minutes is all you need to boil off enough DMS to where its no longer perceivable.

[flyangler18]

Not only is covering (partially or otherwise) during the boil a no-no, covering while the wort is still hot and steaming is also a no-no for the very same reasons- condensing vapor that falls right back in. Are you covering while you chill? How fast are you getting below 140°?

[christo]

And with a good boil, 60 minutes is all you need to boil off enough DMS to where its no longer perceivable.

That's the problem. Recently, I've been boiling for 70 minutes and not covering the pot, but still have some issues, especially seems with pilsner based beers. It may be that my boil isn't hard enough, or could be that I have a problem with sanitation in my kegs, as that's where I tend to notice the celery notes after a month or two in a keg. I'm going thru the sanitation issues first, then back to harder/longer boils next, so that I can isolate the issue. If neither of these get rid of the symptoms, it could be from repitching yeast, but that will be my last set of changes to make.

[mr x]

Is this all using the same brand of Pilsner? If it is, a switch in brands might be a helpful.

[flyangler18]

I'd say for grainbills with a large (read- 50+%) proportion of Pilsner malt, 90 minutes is ideal.

EDIT: I formulate all my recipes for a 90 minute boil. This allows the hot break to pass before I add my 60 minute addition.

[mr x]

+1.

[Chimone]

half the beers I do are 100% Pils based. Ive never had a problem with the vegetable flavors that come with DMS. Like stated above, I boil really hard for the full 60 minutes. Actually 70 if you take into consideration the time it takes me to get a good hop break with my keggle.

But who knows, maybe its because I live in the desert our evaporation rates are alot higher being that humidity levels are so low.

[MrMarbleHead]

.........evaporation rates are alot higher being that humidity levels are so low.

DING DING DING......we have a winner!!!!


DMS is more effected by evaporation rate than how vigorous your boil is. Which I guess your evap rate is controled by how vigorous your boil is so it can be said that the intensity of your boil controls the driving off of DMS.....but....I believe that the evaporation rate (read: relative humidity) has more of effect on the driving off of DMS.

[MX1]

I have a hard time reaching a hard boil n my 7 gal pot. I think I am mis-mached on the gas that my burner needs. Living in Brussles, means I had to do a conversion on my turkey fryer's regulator. They sell different types of cooking gas of here, and I thnk I have the wrong one.

I am about to build a 220v heat stick to help get a better boil, but that will be next month.

Tim

[BrewMeister Jeff]

Thanks guys - Now my Fucking Head Hurts!