!$#^#$ Efficiency

[fireballmatt]

So, I brewed my first all grain batch today and my efficiency sucked...recipe was as follows

7.25lb pale 2-row
.5lb crystal 120L
.5lb Honey malt
.33lb chocolate malt
.10 roasted barley

Came in at 1.030 5 gallon batch. Followed beersmith's mash in/out for 10.85 qt @ 171 degrees (158 degrees step temp) for 45 minutes, mash out with 4.34 qt @ 197 (168 degree step temp) for 10 mins. Realized I would wind up shy of 5 gals for the boil, so I added another 3 gallons @ 160 before mash out and kept temp @ 152 overall for what wound up being 50 minutes before the mash out.

Wound up with a little over 5 gallons for the boil.

What do I need to do differently? Should I mash for longer? If I'm not going to hit 5 gallons for the boil should I just accept that?

It calculated my boil volume at 5.72 gals, which theres no way in hell if it only wanted me to add just over 15 quarts total for mash.

I'm confused.

[Ó Flannagáin]

OK, what was your target gravity?

How much beer did you end up with? 5 gallons? LIttle more/little less?

How much did you sparge with and what temp was your sparge water?

Who crushed your grain?

[fireballmatt]

LHBS crushed the grain, I watched her do it...Barley crusher, very nice crush.

Target gravity for the style is 1.045-1.060 missed it by a whopping .015 at the lower end, was hoping for 1.050.

I ended up with 5 gals of beer almost exactly after the boil, maybe slightly under.

Sparged with 3 gals @ 160, but I think I goofed because I'm unfamiliar with 'mash out' in beersmith, so I basically did mash with 171 deg (little over 10 quarts) water for 45 mins (tun temp kept @ an even 150) then sparged with that 3 gals @ 160, just concentrated on keeping a nice slow even flow through. Then mashed out with the 191 degree 1 gallon.




OK, what was your target gravity?

How much beer did you end up with? 5 gallons? LIttle more/little less?

How much did you sparge with and what temp was your sparge water?

Who crushed your grain?

[Ó Flannagáin]

Sounds pretty good. Did you stir really well when you added your strike water and again when you added your sparge water?

[fireballmatt]

Stirred the hell out of it with the paddle. Didn't want to have any channels in the grain bed.


Sounds pretty good. Did you stir really well when you added your strike water and again when you added your sparge water?

[mr x]

You need more sparge water I think, if I understand you correctly. For a grain bill of that size, I would double batch sparge at 2.5 to 3 gallons each time. If you are mashing out, subtract that volume form the sparges.

I think you should always mash at 60 minutes minimum, just to be on the safe side.

Use a batch sparge method. Fill the MLT with sparge water, stir, let is sit for 5 minutes, then vorlauf and take it to the kettle.

[mr x]

I ended up with 5 gals of beer almost exactly after the boil, maybe slightly under.

Sparged with 3 gals @ 160, but I think I goofed because I'm unfamiliar with 'mash out' in beersmith, so I basically did mash with 171 deg (little over 10 quarts) water for 45 mins (tun temp kept @ an even 150) then sparged with that 3 gals @ 160, just concentrated on keeping a nice slow even flow through. Then mashed out with the 191 degree 1 gallon.I generally try to get 5.5 gallons into the carboy. Depending on how much hops I used, this could look like 6 gallons in the kettle.

The mash out is supposed to be done before the sparge, although what you did shouldn't be a disaster. The idea is to get the mash temp up to make the bed more fluid. Then you sparge to finish the job.

First time is always a learning experience. It will be fine beer to drink, just a little light. It will only get better from here. What is that recipe? What were the hops?

[rooster445]

add about 3 more lbs of 2 row next time. As you brew more allgrain your eff. will get better and you can cut the grain back

[fireballmatt]

Recipe was:

7.25lb pale 2-row
.5lb crystal 120L
.5lb Honey malt
.33lb chocolate malt
.10 roasted barley
1.0 oz fuggles @ 60

Wyeast British Ale II 1335

How do you know exactly how much sparge water to use? Thanks for explaining the mash out, I was under the impression that the high temperature of it would mess up the enzymes that were breaking down the sugars. But I guess looking at the sparge as a 'flush' of the sugars from the grain would make sense.



I generally try to get 5.5 gallons into the carboy. Depending on how much hops I used, this could look like 6 gallons in the kettle.

The mash out is supposed to be done before the sparge, although what you did shouldn't be a disaster. The idea is to get the mash temp up to make the bed more fluid. Then you sparge to finish the job.

First time is always a learning experience. It will be fine beer to drink, just a little light. It will only get better from here. What is that recipe? What were the hops?

[mr x]

I generally go by volume. I sparge enough that it takes my kettle to the right volume for me to do a 90 min boil and hit 5.5 gallons into the carboy at my O.G. .

How I figured this out was a bit of trial and error, but for a 5 gallon brew, 6 gallons of sparge water is about right for me to hit my O.G. . This depends a bit on the grain bill (due to mash volume), but for the most part, it's very close over a wide range of beer.

Keep good notes. I document everything I brew, so I can go back and check results when I'm in doubt.

When you mash out, you attempt to get the grain bed close to 170f. Over that and you extract tannins (although I have found that inconsistent). Most of us have found that sparge water at 180 will get us in the ballpark.

[mr x]

I generally go by volume. I sparge enough that it takes my kettle to the right volume for me to do a 90 min boil and hit 5.5 gallons into the carboy at my O.G. .

How I figured this out was a bit of trial and error, but for a 5 gallon brew, 6 gallons of sparge water is about right for me to hit my O.G. . This depends a bit on the grain bill (due to mash volume), but for the most part, it's very close over a wide range of beer.

Keep good notes. I document everything I brew, so I can go back and check results when I'm in doubt.

[christo]

While 45 minutes may be enough time to convert, I would 1+ the suggestion on a minimum of 60 min if you don't test for conversion w/ iodine.

Looks like you ended up with about a 50% efficiency, which could be worse. My adage is "always keep a couple pounds of DME around" just in case.

What type of manifold do you have? Good design there is essential to prevent channelling in fly sparging especially.

The usual places for lower efficiency are undercrushing or not stirring well enough and leaving some "dough" balls, but sounds like you covered those two.

To calculate volume needed for the sparge, you need to take your original mash-in volume of 10 qts (2.5 gal) and then subtract off what the grain soaks in, approx .1 gal per lb is what I go with, so about 0.9 gal, leaving you with 1.6 gal of "liquid". For a 5 gallon ending batch, you want to collect around 6 to 6.5 gallons depending on the length of your boil and evaporation rate, which you just have to empirically determine by trial and error. My system is right at a gallon per hour. So the sparge/mash out volume is the difference. For my system that would be 6 - 1.6 = 4.4 gallons for sparge. Then, you want to have enough to keep the grain bed submerged, so an additional 2 gallons or so (long way around to Mr. X's 6 gallons for sparging).

I batch sparge as well, so I mash in with the 2.5 gallons, add about 1.5 gallons for mashout, then 3 gallons for the second batch, which will give me approximately two equal 3-gallon batch sparges. You don't worry about keeping the grain submerged, just drain it out fully each time. This method does cut into efficiency some however but is extremely easy.

[poops4president]

just so you know ur not the only one... I cant get my Eff. up above 50%... and even that can swing 5% either way so its not consistent. so dont feel bad. just brew and not worry about it... i just compensate with larger amounts of basemalt... untill i bother to try a new MLT design, I have been happy with my results and you should be too!

[fireballmatt]

What type of manifold do you have? Good design there is essential to prevent channelling in fly sparging especially.

I'm using a 9 gallon stainless steel tun with a false bottom. It seemed to work really well and I was actually fairly shocked at how well it held the temp where it needed to be.

I think for the next brew I'm going to concentrate on 2 things:

1) let the mash sit for at least 60 minutes regardless of what beersmith says
2) really pay careful attention with the sparge and actually measure the gravity of my runnings.

I figure if I keep having efficiency problems I can take the approach one small step at a time, and if I take good notes and do everything the same each time except that one step (same recipe) I'll get a good technique down that works and then move on to a different recipe.

I'll probably also add another lb or so of the base grain for the next one, just as insurance. The style guidelines specify from 1.045 - 1.060, so even if I do get better efficiency next time it's not going to be a deal breaker so far as OG is concerned.

[fireballmatt]

Thanks for the note of confidence :) I'm sure it's not going to turn out bad, the yeast took right to it Saturday night and it smelled wonderful. I think it'll be a kickass beer that I can drink MORE of next time I'm brewing :)



just so you know ur not the only one... I cant get my Eff. up above 50%... and even that can swing 5% either way so its not consistent. so dont feel bad. just brew and not worry about it... i just compensate with larger amounts of basemalt... untill i bother to try a new MLT design, I have been happy with my results and you should be too!

[ben the brewman]

i also agree that you should do a longer mash time. i do 90 min mashes and they work well and i fly sparg. i was about 75% efficiency (using a cooler for a mash tun)before i started to do a continous flow of sparg water from another cooler (hlt) now im hitting 80% on all of the brews i have done lately.

[Stammtisch]

Well, Efficiency is a trail and error process. Because SO many variables can affect it. It sounds like you are batch sparging, so try this next time.

1) Dough in and stir the crap outta it.
2) make sure you hit your temp within a few degrees.
3) 30 minutes in to the 60 minute mash, open the lid and stir the crap outta it.
4) At 60 minutes, stir the crap outta it again, and vourlauf immediately.
5) Double batch sparge with 185 degree water, when you pour in your first sparge water, be sure to stir the crap outta it again. Vourlauf and drain Dont let it sit after you stir.
6) Repeat step 5 for the last batch sparge.

Again, YRMV, but I was hitting a constant high 60's, and once I started doing this, my Efficiency shot up to 80's.
I also adjusted the gap on my barley crusher to alot finer crush.

Just as a personal note, I didnt add DME, or grain to my recipes until AFTER, I had brewed on my system for about a year, no since putting a bandaid on a problem, when you dont know where the problem is. In fact I dont ever add DME.
It may take a little bit to fine tune your system to BeerSmith, and to its efficiency, so change one thing at a time, that way you will know exactly what affected you efficiency.
Hope this helps.
Josh

[fireballmatt]

This is pretty much the procedure I was going to try this weekend. Question, what does the double batch sparge do that a single wouldnt? I'm guessing it picks up more sugars from the grains? ...so, do I take the amount I was going to use for the single sparge and just split it in half, or is there some extra calculations that need to be made for it?




Well, Efficiency is a trail and error process. Because SO many variables can affect it. It sounds like you are batch sparging, so try this next time.

1) Dough in and stir the crap outta it.
2) make sure you hit your temp within a few degrees.
3) 30 minutes in to the 60 minute mash, open the lid and stir the crap outta it.
4) At 60 minutes, stir the crap outta it again, and vourlauf immediately.
5) Double batch sparge with 185 degree water, when you pour in your first sparge water, be sure to stir the crap outta it again. Vourlauf and drain Dont let it sit after you stir.
6) Repeat step 5 for the last batch sparge.

Again, YRMV, but I was hitting a constant high 60's, and once I started doing this, my Efficiency shot up to 80's.
I also adjusted the gap on my barley crusher to alot finer crush.

Just as a personal note, I didnt add DME, or grain to my recipes until AFTER, I had brewed on my system for about a year, no since putting a bandaid on a problem, when you dont know where the problem is. In fact I dont ever add DME.
It may take a little bit to fine tune your system to BeerSmith, and to its efficiency, so change one thing at a time, that way you will know exactly what affected you efficiency.
Hope this helps.
Josh

[Stammtisch]

This is pretty much the procedure I was going to try this weekend. Question, what does the double batch sparge do that a single wouldnt? I'm guessing it picks up more sugars from the grains? ...so, do I take the amount I was going to use for the single sparge and just split it in half, or is there some extra calculations that need to be made for it?

Yes, it picks up more of the sugars, the next logical question would be... So why dont I do three?
If you do three, it takes up more time, with a negligable amount of sugars gained. So then you are looking at the same time as a fly sparge.

Yes, thats exactly what you would do. Take the the total amount and split it into 2 equal amounts.
For example, if you need to sparge with 5 gallons, you would sparge twice with 2.5 gallons each.

Also, I have done mash-outs, and didnt really gain anything from it, so you can if you want to, but I found it was another wasted step.