Wyeast Roseleare alternative.

[PseudoChef]

This was posted over on The Brewing Network's message board by an employee of Wyeast. I thought it warranted passing on here:


shhhhh!! here's a secret....the Wyeast 3278 Lambic Blend is the same stuff as the Roselare, just slight variations on the amount of the brett strains.

[Ó Flannagáin]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

[DrunkenSatyr]

You rock PC!

[Evan!]

I might have to try this out for my flanders red souring-blend halfbatch.

On that note, my Brett Lambicus arrived today. Awww fuck yeah. Gonna have to brew me up a nice little mini-batch of lambic wort.

Hey, what do you guys think about using a 5 gallon carboy for a 3 gallon sour blending batch? Should I just bite the stupid bullet and go for all 5 gallons (or maybe just 4.5 to leave sufficient room for the pellicle?) It can't hurt to have too much super-sour brett-only lambic sitting around, I also wonder if I could just blend some of that in with my flanders red if I'm not satisfied with the sourness level there.

Then again, with 1.021's worth of sugar to start with, I think the Roeselare will do just fine.

Sorry for the threadjack...

[PseudoChef]

Are you just making up basically 5 gallons of a Brett only beer?

It won't be as sour as you think - Brett only beers aren't that sour, more of a clean funkiness, but not that sour.

[Evan!]

Are you just making up basically 5 gallons of a Brett only beer?

It won't be as sour as you think - Brett only beers aren't that sour, more of a clean funkiness, but not that sour.

so school me on this, then. When I asked you at the other place, you suggested the brett L for my souring batch, which is why I bought it. You said:


The Brett L. produces more sourness than the brux, in both acetic and lactic terms.


Should I use some saccharomyces in there too? I'm after the sourest beer I can get to use as a blending batch for my lambic that I'm afraid won't be sour enough. The more sour, the better, because I'll just be adding enough of it to achieve the level I'm looking for. So what's your suggestion on what to do here?

I could also just top up with a touch of lactic acid if it's not sour enough...

[PseudoChef]

Ah, I read your post again and I missed the part where you said you were making a souring batch - I was about to ask you in your post above and just got really confused.

I just read some things over on babblebelt and a couple of them have done 100% Brett L. and are getting mixed results - mainly chalked up to pitching amount and fermentation temp.

If you wanted to get really fucked up - you could culture some lactobacillus off some yogurt and use that as well for more of a lactic character.

Sorry that I didn't quite understand, but from my experience so far with the Brett L. , it's pretty bombass, just don't know what it does with the 100% format. There was a great seminar at this year's NHC where they did Brett at different stages and it seemed a majority that the 100% was cleaner than the ones in secondary - for what reason I'm not really sure. I had an Avery 15 (don't know which strain they used, def. not Lambicus) this past weekend and it had the trademark wet dog thing, but no acid.

I still think, even with 1.010 and time, that the Roeselare will be ok and give a good deal of sourness. Mine only dropped 1.012 to 1.008 and it's big time sour.

Sorry again for the misunderstanding, but I think whatever you do, you'll a) learn something (and let me know what the outcome is and how wrong I am :)) and b) end up with something sour.

[MrMarbleHead]

That is good info to know PC thanks.

I will have to say about the souring batch, Evan, I think if you are looking for something to blend into another beer, you may want to go with some lacto or sacc, you can make that shit all kinds of sour, more so than you would with just brett. And since you are blending it in you wouldn't need to use as much. And if you are adding it to a beer with brett in it already then you will have the brett charactor you are looking for in the beer to begin with.

And PC how would you go about culturing lacto from some yogurt?

[Evan!]

There's not roeselare in the lambic. The Roeselare is in the Flanders Red, which was at 1.021 when I added the bugs. I'm confident that that batch will be plenty sour. The lambic, with 1.010, I dunno.

I also might either add some sugar in a couple months once the remaining saccharomyces have died down. I also wonder how much sugar is in the 3 cans of oregon puree cherries that I plan on adding in a year. That might put me over the top.

BTW, the lambic has Wyeast's Lambic Blend in it right now, and it's got a pretty sweet lookin pellicle.

So, what's your final recommendation here? Would I do better to just make an entirely new lambic with sacch and the brett lambicus, rather than trying to make a super-sour blending mini-batch? I'm now starting to lean that direction. What do you think?

I know you said you got plenty of sourness from those 4 gravity points, but...I guess I just don't understand how these bugs work yet. I'm really curious as to whether or not their cannibalization of the dead saccharomyces cells produces any sourness...

And, again, since I'll be getting all the funk I need from the brett and lambic blend, I really don't have a problem with adding a touch of lactic acid at the end if absolutely necessary. I already have a jar that I used on my wit, so...

[PseudoChef]

Hmmm....I think I got it now.

My recommendation would still be to see if your fears are confounded first by the low "starting" gravity for the bugs - which may be true since there won't be much lactic acid production in the presence of alcohol.

Here's what I would do, personally (and fuck, you should have the grain and space - I've seen your place :)): Take the Brett L. and make a starter over the course of a week or two. Make a grist for 10 gallons (or 8 or something) and split fermentation 2x 5 (4) gallons - one with 100% Brett L. and the other fermented with Sacch. first and then Brett L. in the secondary.

Save a small portion of the Brett L. in case you want to pitch it straight into the lambic, as well.


Is the recipe from Brewing Classic Styles? I still don't see why he would use Sacch. in it first since you want to produce some lactic and acetic acids.

For shits and giggles, here's that presentation (http://www.beertown.org/events/hbc/presentations/GregDoss_BrettBrewing.pdf) I was talking about.

[Evan!]

Hmmm....I think I got it now.

My recommendation would still be to see if your fears are confounded first by the low "starting" gravity for the bugs - which may be true since there won't be much lactic acid production in the presence of alcohol.

Here's what I would do, personally (and fuck, you should have the grain and space - I've seen your place :)): Take the Brett L. and make a starter over the course of a week or two. Make a grist for 10 gallons (or 8 or something) and split fermentation 2x 5 (4) gallons - one with 100% Brett L. and the other fermented with Sacch. first and then Brett L. in the secondary.

Save a small portion of the Brett L. in case you want to pitch it straight into the lambic, as well.


Is the recipe from Brewing Classic Styles? I still don't see why he would use Sacch. in it first since you want to produce some lactic and acetic acids.

For shits and giggles, here's that presentation (http://www.beertown.org/events/hbc/presentations/GregDoss_BrettBrewing.pdf) I was talking about.

That's all well and good, but dude, I already have 2 carboys that are going to be tied up for the next 12-18 months. I might have the space, but I can't be 4 carboys down for a year. Maybe I'll just do a little 1-gallon thing for the brett-only batch.

[PseudoChef]

Brett only will ferment like a normal sacc batch and be done in about a week. Sooooooo...you're only really tying up 3 carboys :) Don't you have like 9 or some crazy shit?

it's weird, I know, but that's what it does.

[Ryanh1801]

If you do brett only, don't aerate the wort. Although I'm not sure that a brett only batch is gonna be optimal for blending with a lambic. Also doing Sacch first then brett is not going to make a very sour beer, and its gonna take a while to get even a little sour. Why not do something with just lacto and then blending it in the with rest of the beer?

[PseudoChef]

Also doing Sacch first then brett is not going to make a very sour beer, and its gonna take a while to get even a little sour.

Dude, check out the presentation I linked above. Dudes from Wyeast did this experiment and it's the exact opposite of what you'd expect. They had all the beers there for tasting - Brett only is surprisingly clean while the sacch first then Brett in secondary is sour.

While I haven't done an all Brett, the Brett dubbel I have is very sour right now and it's only dropped 4 points as I've pointed out.

I know it's crazy, but man, I'm tasting these beers and I can tell you it's true.

[Ryanh1801]

Dude, check out the presentation I linked above. Dudes from Wyeast did this experiment and it's the exact opposite of what you'd expect. They had all the beers there for tasting - Brett only is surprisingly clean while the sacch first then Brett in secondary is sour.

While I haven't done an all Brett, the Brett dubbel I have is very sour right now and it's only dropped 4 points as I've pointed out.

I know it's crazy, but man, I'm tasting these beers and I can tell you it's true.

My experience has been, brett while funky is not really sour, like you get from Lacto and Pedro. My small brett only batch was way more funkier than any of my Brett in the secondary beers. If Evan wants the beer more sour, I really don't think brett is the way to go, but thats just my .02.

[PseudoChef]

What strains did you use?

[Ryanh1801]

What strains did you use?


B and L.. Both WL strains (Only cause I hear the Wyeast L, is different than the White labs.)

[Evan!]

My experience has been, brett while funky is not really sour, like you get from Lacto and Pedro. My small brett only batch was way more funkier than any of my Brett in the secondary beers. If Evan wants the beer more sour, I really don't think brett is the way to go, but thats just my .02.

So your suggestion is to get some lacto or pedio then? Which would you prefer? I think I'm gonna go with my brett lambicus and whichever of those two you prefer. SO...lacto or pedio?

[PseudoChef]

lacto.

[Evan!]

lacto.

you screwed me once already, PC! fool me once, shame on you. fool me, fool, you can't get fooled again. :p;)

Cool, I'll go with lacto too then

[Ryanh1801]

Second on the lacto. Save Pedio for something else. Pedio is suppose to be really hard to mess with, and not sure how it would act blending it. Oh and on the lacto I would pitch it before the brett, maybe 2 or 3 days, to get a really sour beer going. Just throwing ideas out there.

[Evan!]

Second on the lacto. Save Pedio for something else. Pedio is suppose to be really hard to mess with, and not sure how it would act blending it. Oh and on the lacto I would pitch it before the brett, maybe 2 or 3 days, to get a really sour beer going. Just throwing ideas out there.

think there's any reason to add sacch to the mix?

[Ryanh1801]

think there's any reason to add sacch to the mix?


No, personally I would not bother. I would how ever make sure the brett is a health culture with a big starter.

[Evan!]

No, personally I would not bother. I would how ever make sure the brett is a health culture with a big starter.

Will do. The brett is brand new, manufacture date of 9/23. Would you bother to decant the fermented wort off the starter? or just dump it all into the main wort?

Also, does the lacto need a starter?

Thanks for your help, I'm pretty new at bugs, as you know.

[Ryanh1801]

Will do. The brett is brand new, manufacture date of 9/23. Would you bother to decant the fermented wort off the starter? or just dump it all into the main wort?

Also, does the lacto need a starter?

Thanks for your help, I'm pretty new at bugs, as you know.

Not too sure about the lacto, never made a starter with lacto. But all the brett I have gotten has been pretty weak looking. I usually step it up once or twice, and decent off. Brett starters finish pretty fast. No problem with the help I am pretty new to all this also, but pretty much only brew sour stuff now, its just too good.