Efficiency: How Do Batch Spargers Do It?

[Dale]

This may be a dumb question, and sorry if I'm long-winded, but I was wondering about it yesterday as I was doing my run-off...

I fly sparge. Not because I think it's necessarily superior, but it's just another step I enjoy on brewday. And I'm certainly not trying to start a batch vs. fly debate, I've been brewing long enough to know there's no one right answer for everything.

But with all things being equal, grainbill, grain crush, temp and pH, etc. the thing that impacts my efficiency on my system the most is the speed at which I do the sparge/run-off. If I run off 6.5 gallons in 45-60 min., my efficiency clocks in at about 75-80%. If I run off 6.5 gallons in 60-75 min., my efficiency climbs to 85-90%. I once slowed my run-off to 90 minutes and hit 95% efficiency.

It seems to me that if I batch sparged and ran off as quickly as possible, efficiency would take a dramatic hit, maybe 50% or so. How do you batch spargers get good efficiency?

[MrMarbleHead]

I fill my Tun up to about the top for a mash out and then it takes me about 10-15 minutes to run off my mash tun, then i fill it again, stir and run off again about 10-15min. I run off pretty slow for a batch sparger, but it is peace of mind for me after seeing the channels forming on the sides of my tun.

I get right around 75% eff, at least that what i set my recipes up for and i have been hitting my numbers pretty consistently, some times i over shoot a couple of points but i haven't had a batch come in under 75% since i built my new mash tun earlier in the year.

[Ó Flannagáin]

I run pretty slow as well. Takes me about 15 to 20 minutes to get my initial run off, then I fill up with 175-180F water and that run off can take anywhere from 20 minutes to 30 minutes. I get 75-80% efficiency all the time.

[Dale]

Okay, that makes sense. I was under the impression that batch spargers added the sparge water, stirred, then ran off with the valve wide open. It sounds like what you guys are doing takes just as long as what I'm doing, you just aren't messing around with a crude sparge arm made from CPVC and surgical tape like I am.

[Ó Flannagáin]

I do have the valve wide open, but it still takes that long to drain 5 gallons out my MLT.

[PseudoChef]

Hmmm...I may be starting to see a problem in my system, then.

I batch sparge. After I do the initial lauter, I dump in half my batch sparge water at about 185F or so, stir, then let settle for 10 minutes or so. Then I crank the valve all the way open and let 'er rip...takes maybe 3-4 minutes to empty. Then I do it again with the rest of the water. I would think those 10 minutes would be sufficient to get sugars to dissolve, but perhaps not.

I may try a crude fly sparge next time.

I hit around 65% eff., by the way. I also think I'm getting wicked channeling from the SS braid. May have to switch to a manifold.

[Barley-Davidson]

Where's Denny, we need him to weight in on this.
I don't think run off speed matters when batch sparging per se, but I think there may be some relationship between contact time with the sparge water and the grist.

[rooster445]

I do a constant 65 to 68% batch sparging sober drinking with friends I do around 55 to 60% but have a hell of a time!

[Shenanigans]

I do have the valve wide open, but it still takes that long to drain 5 gallons out my MLT.


On my last batch, I didn't have it open hardly at all, but it still drained really quick it was almost scary how fast it sucked out. How do you keep it from draining so fast? I seemed to be getting quite a bit of siphon action out of the tubing too though.


Also, the last one I did, the grain had about an inch of space from the cooler all the way around it. Is that normal? Sorry for the hijack

[Shenanigans]

Getting back to the OP..........from what I've read, to get the best efficiency, it is best to do a mash out and do 2 180F batch sparges. But, that is only what I have read from other peeps.

[Ó Flannagáin]

I'm not sure why mine drains so slow. I would guess it's one or a combo of the following ... the spout opening is very small, like maybe 1/4 inch. I tend to crush my grain a little fine with the corona... no astringincy problems yet though :D

[PseudoChef]

Getting back to the OP..........from what I've read, to get the best efficiency, it is best to do a mash out and do 2 180F batch sparges. But, that is only what I have read from other peeps.

For batch sparging, there's no real need for a separate mash-out step. You can do your first sparge at a high enough temperature to bring the grainbed up to 168°F. Then do your second sparge at 168° which shouldn't change the grainbed temp.

Also, it isn't really necessary in the aspect of deactivating the enzymes since batch spargers usually hit the boil in a much shorter time before fly-spargers do.

[Evan!]

Batch sparging doesn't equal poor efficiency. I think it's got more to do with the crush than the sparging method. I routinely get efficiency numbers in the 80%+ range. I don't know about getting higher numbers, though...95% sounds pretty wild to me. I've heard some mumblings around teh interwebz about extremely high efficiency not necessarily being good, too...something about the high extraction rate pulling some unwanted compounds from the grain...can anyone confirm/debunk that?

[PseudoChef]

Batch sparging doesn't equal poor efficiency. I think it's got more to do with the crush than the sparging method. I routinely get efficiency numbers in the 80%+ range. I don't know about getting higher numbers, though...95% sounds pretty wild to me. I've heard some mumblings around teh interwebz about extremely high efficiency not necessarily being good, too...something about the high extraction rate pulling some unwanted compounds from the grain...can anyone confirm/debunk that?

The only thing that I can confirm is that Jamil (I know, I know....) always talks about aiming for 70% because too high of an extraction rate will pull tannins from the grains. If it's true remains to really be concluded, though.

[Evan!]

The only thing that I can confirm is that Jamil (I know, I know....) always talks about aiming for 70% because too high of an extraction rate will pull tannins from the grains. If it's true remains to really be concluded, though.

I've never heard him mention it, though I do remember someone saying that he said that before. I just wonder if anyone out there has delved into this any deeper than JZ does (in other words, I wonder if he's pulling it straight out of his ass like some of the things he says on the show).

[DrunkenSatyr]

If 70% is the magic number then how are the big breweries achieving 95-99% without problems? I know they are using more dialed in systems but surely this is not a problem that we as home brewers alone would suffer. It would have to reside in either the way that we are removing the wort from the grains or lie in some mystery step that we are not taking. I find it a bit hard to swallow. Next time I am around Brock from Saint Arnold I will ask him about this and see if he has any insight.

[PseudoChef]

^^^That's an interesting point I've never thought about. Hmmm.

[poops4president]

well to get the other side of the fence I am still getting like 50-55% and I let'er rip... tho I havnt calculated my flanders red yet cuz I am lazy and I got 10poitns higher, but i still ran full blast on the draining.

I just figgure that batch sparging ur just basically getting all ur sugars from the first runnings and trying to wash off whats left behind in the tun with sparge...unlike fly where it seams to me u are controlling the flow of the sugar so you are getting more control/every last bit of sugar durring the slow transfer. also how much does teh size of ur ur mash have to do with it... i mean the grain bed really is a bug filter right? so if i have a shallow bed with a fast run off it stands to reason that I would get less sugar teh a thicker bed with slower run off...